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Season 5 Episode 15 | Recorded May 6th, 2021

Neither Confirm, Nor Deny: Blacklist Script Analysis

Developing the story structure of a Blacklist-quality screenplay

Continuing our look at the Blacklist Spec Scripts for 2020, we dive into Neither Confirm, Nor Deny--a classic Cold War CIA story with a very un-classic story structure for the genre. The class runs for an hour and a half, and for good reason--without giving the surprise away (Spoiler Alert for the class!), this episode is a must-watch if you're interested in a practical application of the Dramatica theory of story (and in particular, how to use Subtext to leverage its ground-breaking concepts 😊).

And it's even more important if you think you have to stick with a Storyform no matter where your writer's intuition takes you...

Live Transcription

(Started ten minutes into the conversation...)

00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:59.000 That it wasn't a sacrificing work but on the he was not going to go back to see his son, and on the advice of candy or Cindy, whatever name is.

00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:04.000 He did go back.

00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:11.000 That That time I remember it but I could be wrong on that memory

00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:14.000 jogger, take a look here.

00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.000 I think that was awesome. When

00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.000 the.

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:30.000 He made it really important decision in defaulting that just deposit ultimate decision to another

00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.000 member of the team.

00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:52.000 I think it was either the power of the two ships were on a, on a collision course at the end, when he goes, Okay then, then you decide, and he was very okay with, allowing his, his, his teammates to do the deciding.

00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:02.000 I thought that could have implied that he was a change character because up until then he, he was really taking on all the, all the big decisions.

00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:07.000 Yeah, that's a huge change.

00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:18.000 And that one's pretty clear to and ties in with kind of all the stuff that he's doing but yeah that's a huge, you know, leap of faith sort of moment.

00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:25.000 He's always taking control always has to be the one that does everything and then finally advocates, a little bit of that.

00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Okay.

00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:41.000 So let that one. So, but I mean we're pretty much going to change, and then john is definitely at the influence carrier. In order for that to work, probably stay steadfast sports, right.

00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 So,

00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.000 what I'm sorry. It's muffled I

00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:59.000 said that the both of the john grant Amber.

00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.000 Yeah. Okay, cool.

00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Both.

00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.000 Okay.

00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:21.000 Let's just do main character growth, which sometimes I skipped but I really liked it because I think it helps out a lot.

00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:43.000 And it's always the relationship between the influence character and arms are the main character and the objective story right so is, does it seem like David is moving away from something like it's a stock dynamic and he's growing by getting, you know,

00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:58.000 getting the chip off the shoulder, or is there some kind of growth towards him moving into something, and kind of, you know, filling a hole that was in his heart, as it were.

00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.000 Anybody have a sense of that either way and if not we can, we can leave it out.

00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.000 I feel like it was a start.

00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:06.000 Okay.

00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:19.000 And you'd say that because I think he has to

00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:27.000 be like a warrior, father.

00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:33.000 I would be able to hear but it

00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:47.000 was something like nobody had a line, something to the effect of you like a failure of a father, that but I don't know if that ties so much to the submarine.

00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.000 Right.

00:14:49.000 --> 00:15:09.000 I think there was a bit where Andy, and David were talking and candy imply that he was just being too much of a perfectionist, this isn't that sort of thing, I think, just at the beginning of that for going into a store and therefore he needed to stop

00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:14.000 a perfectionist, and that implied that he was a stock character.

00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:18.000 Okay. I was gonna say stop as well.

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:33.000 Just, just because that whole like company man kicked out of the company feels a lot like a chip on the shoulder.

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:43.000 And certainly with what Sasha was saying, the whole perfection of and things to be a monkey on his back that he needs to kind of get rid of their.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:50.000 So I think that that fits pretty good in there.

00:15:50.000 --> 00:16:08.000 So they for dollar or beer is Dave more when it comes to his personal problems because, don't forget to these like.

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:26.000 is when it comes to his personal issues. Does he prefer to solve them externally, as a viewer, or does he prefer to start from internally,

00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.000 see both but leaning toward.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:35.000 Maybe I'm, you see both beer and do her but more so towards the viewer.

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.000 Yeah.

00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.000 Okay.

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:51.000 So if you wanted evidence of a Dewar on his personal items. He lost William with at the at the show at the fair.

00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:59.000 Anyone out actively seeking Him, when William didn't come back on time.

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:06.000 And there was another time.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:15.000 But other than that we really just see him.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:27.000 I'm trying to think data, data, data, data, data really just giving orders although he doesn't give strong orders, making decisions.

00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:38.000 I was going to suggest he was a beer because he had a, an element of seasickness and vertigo on what when he was on the boat.

00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:51.000 And that wasn't declared until it was discovered. But he was throwing up when he when they went on that brief excursion out on the bay. Whenever.

00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:56.000 And then I think he'd be throwing up in his cabin.

00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:06.000 And he then come out sheepishly, and the naval officer would recognize that he was just not cut out to being a seaman.

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:17.000 But the point was he just didn't let that is sort of internalize that in his life so that he wouldn't come out.

00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:24.000 Because as a sign of weakness for because he was basically leading the, the whole operation.

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:31.000 And like when it comes to his dealings with his family and stuff. I was he.

00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:40.000 I mean, he's not there but what says, what does he do about it.

00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Or does he just changed himself to Zb and just kind of swallows it kind of like he's swallowing all the throwing up, then moves on.

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:59.000 So he swallows it like when he sees his son, playing basketball that's the time that he went back east.

00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.000 I think at the prompting of candy.

00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:10.000 And then he didn't connect up with his son. He just drove away.

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:16.000 Which okay he's driving, but it's really about,

00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:20.000 you know,

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:29.000 what is it not swallowing it but subsuming it or there's a word.

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.000 Put it quit pushing it down the aisle pushing the pricing Right.

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.000 Yeah, which I think would speak more Jimmy.

00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000 Right.

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.000 You said being right you cut out there.

00:19:44.000 --> 00:20:03.000 Yeah yeah I don't think that yeah yeah I agree, I'm using that as an instance of being that he's absorbing the blows from from his distance that is that has happened with his son and he can't reach out to change that yet.

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.000 Yeah.

00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Yeah, I would agree with that. Sure.

00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:22.000 Okay, well this is, this is also a really good sign if you can, if everybody picks up on it I know there's like been different, you know, back and forth sort of things, but the fact that there's so many ready examples, and that it's easy to pick up on

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:41.000 what they are, it's not as much of a challenge to find it i think is a really another good sign of why it was higher up there, so then the, the mindset when it's like linear or holistic is Dave linear is the holistic and we want to, like, do this one

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.000 and move on. Or he's linear.

00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:47.000 Yeah.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.000 He's a numbers man.

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.000 Very much so.

00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:02.000 And, you know, it speaks for the genre to that, that would be kind of what you would expect, and that's comics on maybe

00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.000 see it, CIA, linear.

00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:09.000 Okay, so then let's move on to the story dynamics.

00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:26.000 And that you know we did the story judgment, which is pretty clear the driver, which is the major what's what kicks off the story, 13 equity. And then of course ends up at the end and then makes the different changes and, you know, from one act to the

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:34.000 Do we see it more as an action driven or decision driven decision.

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.000 I think it's action.

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.000 I think decision. And the reason I think it is action is because

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:53.000 And the reason I think it is action is because things happen in the forces the decisions and the thing that happened here is that the US discovered where the sub was.

00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:04.000 And the thing that ends the story is that the sub breaks up

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.000 decision.

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.000 That which forces the decision to put out a story saying, well, saying that they got everything.

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:22.000 Yeah, for the art, which forces a decision on how they're going to respond which is neither confirm nor deny.

00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000 Right. Does that make sense Victoria, as far as like the decisions because there are huge decisions that are made by.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:39.000 Okay. All right. Oh, yeah some kind of like in a lot of times they'll play up the decision because that's, that's what you always play up like the effects of everything that's what yeah.

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000 Okay.

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:56.000 You can always see like, oh okay we're making this choice because this happened or because this happened, sort of stuff. And yeah, action, and then you know that that creates a nice little distance because the story is driven by action.

00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.000 But you know Dave's

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000 more internal and more in the beer realm. So when it comes to him moving with the plot.

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000 There's a lot more kind of resistance to it but it's not as simple as it wouldn't be a few was, you know, more like jobs in America, like, just take action.

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.000 Yeah.

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:27.000 story.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:29.000 Oh, sorry.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Wasn't the, the fact that the submarine downed an action that led to.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:59.000 I see I think I see where Nick is saying about this, discovering the submarine as a blip on the sonar could be seen as an action that leads to decisions and therefore it's a decision driven script.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.000 And I thought the big decision, it.

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:21.000 I thought the, the end of the story, being the decision to, to save, neither confirm or deny, because it ended on a decision, but tied in with the fact that it was a decision driven narrative that what was the.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:27.000 The first decision.

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:34.000 I mean, it's arguably you could argue that the first decision was to abandon the search by the Russians.

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:41.000 The Russians decided not to not to further the search into abandoned the search.

00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:49.000 And then that forced what actions though. That's the thing.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:57.000 Like there's no way this action would have happened if they hadn't made that decision. That's what it needs to be.

00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:07.000 So if I understood. Next argument is that the first action was the Americans discovering them.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.000 There was a possible submarine.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:23.000 That was down. And that led to a decision of passing it up the chain, and then a series of decisions to to go on.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.000 So, I guess I'm right that that that's the basic argument.

00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:41.000 It makes sense because, you know, when you have the driver has an order for it to be a true driver it's like, Okay, well, if this hadn't happened, there's no way this other stuff would have happened.

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000 So,

00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:59.000 then deciding not to go for it kind of just leaves it open ended, and it's like well anything I mean, you could eventually find it it's not like they found it, because they decided not to leave, or I'm sorry because they decided to leave.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:14.000 If you had done that and maybe you could have made it a decision driven story Have you played up the whole deliberation aspect of it, but I think what you see is you see a lot more deliberation afterwards, after an action, and I'm the mid point or the

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000 other two.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:30.000 As I call out to make. Yeah, I had some in mind let me check my notes to see if I can. I was wondering if one of them might have been, when there was that big, like destruction of their initial prototype, or whatever.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.000 They were like Trint trying to show it off and it like fell apart.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:46.000 off and it like fell apart. It wasn't that the middle I thought that was, it might be that I found this script a little bit. I'm kind of like messy in terms of like figuring out where everything was and maybe that's just because it's so long I don't know

00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.000 but.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:01.000 You mean like for you as somebody looked at finding out where plot points where it's done yeah like often I find, like it's like, oh okay yes here's the here's the next actor and you know and no here's the next one, but, but this one I was a little bit

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:06.000 lost in terms of where I was I got

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.000 other people feel the same,

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:17.000 same sort of thing.

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:31.000 No. Okay, so I enjoyed this and but I've heard from someone else that they thought it was, as far as they had gone they not completely read it yet, but that it was very predictable.

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:43.000 And it would seem to me that if it's predictable, that kind of means it's following the pattern

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:47.000 pattern sort of thing. Yeah.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:48.000 Yeah.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:59.000 It wasn't super compelling like I enjoyed it I liked the genre and stuff but it just didn't really like pony and a whole bunch more I like had to turn the page, you know.

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.000 Okay.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.000 Well, we could talk about that I have an idea but we'll get to that

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:15.000 super interesting.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:31.000 Um, I thought like the real story is like super fascinating but yeah I can kind of see what other people are saying, not being super connected to. Yeah, and it might be to like finding real life events that fit into nice clean plot points.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.000 Yep, you know, is a not a made up story.

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:45.000 But yeah do you think, like when you, when it breaks at the end you get a sense that that's the end of the.

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:52.000 NET that's the finale right I mean, yeah. And then it's like, oh, so.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:06.000 And I, I think that's more action driven the decision there, but we'll see okay so when it comes to the continuum, which is the story limit that I've read written into space time or tiny space.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:23.000 Does it seem like the screenplay, the story is looking at Space first are looking at time so in other words is this time a huge really important thing or is space more than.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.000 Is there a deadline.

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:41.000 Yes, because they have to get out of the sea they've got to do this in eight weeks. So, that is, I agree that it's there, and so was trying to beat the news reporters to zoom Walt is leaking stuff.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:58.000 But I think that that it could be any year, as long as it was within eight weeks and because it could be any year and in fact we actually see it go over four or five years without any reference to it being to any year.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:06.000 Those are just many time clocks and then otherwise option story.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.000 Many timelines.

00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:14.000 More than against time itself.

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:21.000 But I, we I guess that would mean I'm from like a struggle with time mark

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:27.000 their time, space, just in terms of

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:38.000 time, space, story, it would be like from the very beginning, you know like, if, if there were people wanting a submarine and we had three hours of oxygen left.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:48.000 And then we got to see whatever sense or they can tell it what's going to everything was going to implode or something in five hours or three weeks or something.

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:59.000 Even that's kind of sketchy, but then that would be something that would be more time space because time is like always at the forefront of like everything that's being decided upon.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:07.000 And it's the entire story not just like little chunks of it here and there, which is like what Nick was saying about meeting time lock.

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:14.000 So I would tend to think more space time for this than time space,

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:23.000 unless anybody has anything else that they would add into that.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:31.000 because there would be like a really specific deadline, which would also describe why I couldn't remember it was the 60s or the 70s.

00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:47.000 Okay. And then the last dynamic would be the story outcome.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000 This is Nick and I think it's a failure.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.000 Okay, this one was really interesting actually.

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 Yeah, they salvage did, but it was a failure.

00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Okay, yeah, but it may depend like that I actually felt I was like, I almost would have to know the, The type like like was the goal. What was the goal, you know if the goal was like learning, and maybe it could be a success, but, you know, spreading

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:31.000 misinformation or something. But, so, so, At the start, when they're talking about financing. The question is how much would you pay to get a whole Russian sub.

00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.000 And then, when they're talking about.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:50.000 The, the, the, the initial boys come back and they say, you know, we can cut a hole in the southern get parts of it out. And that's rejected know I want the whole damn sub.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:01.000 In, and then there was even at the end, the idea that, oh, maybe we're going to come back and get the rest of the sub because we want the whole sub.

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:11.000 And in, we're showing that they don't come back with the whole sub. So the initial goal was not achieved.

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:26.000 I think you're probably right like, I mean, just because the characters say something is the goal doesn't mean necessarily is the goal, but the fact that they they talked about getting pieces of it more easily.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:35.000 And then, didn't even try that kind of kind of is really good evidence that that wasn't the goal.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:43.000 Yeah, what, when it comes to the neither confirm nor deny.

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Is that.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:57.000 Does that feel more like a triumphant sort of thing, like a success good, we didn't. Everything we set out for, or is it kind of like the.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:08.000 The benefit of it but like a side effect of being able to do something. Because of this, You know,

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:20.000 it sounds like it was a decision that was adapted from a new situation which was that they had lost the sub most they were raising it from from the floor.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:26.000 And when they realized that they only had 40 feet wasn't the sub left.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:33.000 And when everybody had their heads down ashamed that they haven't completed the mission.

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:40.000 That was when

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:54.000 they decided to do a shop decided to come out with this line about, neither confirm nor deny, and that's that prompted this great speech I thought, and I felt good at the end, like when I read this.

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:58.000 And he was successful good and what you're thinking.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:07.000 Yeah, for some reason I am I didn't think it was like a weird ending, I thought it was actually pretty smart one.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:08.000 Yeah.

00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.000 Okay.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:28.000 I think it feels like a try, but I feel like if you were going to ask a lot of like the objective story characters they would say some failure.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:35.000 what, What does it seem like the authors trying to say.

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.000 That's the important part.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000 I had a story go here of conceiving.

00:35:43.000 --> 00:36:03.000 Okay, about, let's dive into that as we got all this stuff here so let me go into subtext here, because that'll be that'll be when we figure out like where everything goes okay let's let's go into premise builder.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:07.000 Alright so we got reason alone.

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:11.000 and I'll do resist just for now.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:26.000 Okay, and we don't know, obviously it's good like he's in a good place at the end, new family all that stuff. so it's going to be one of these two. It's just is the intention, some sort of story of, well this was much more virtuous that they did it this

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:30.000 way, or was there an actual triumph at the end.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:39.000 And then when it comes to the three lines, we know

00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:54.000 Dave is going to be down here in the bottom two and then the objective story is going to be somewhere else. So, Sasha, you were saying you light objective story here and I think main character here, and something like that.

00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:12.000 Right, so that the goal is conceiving Dame would be conscious john is all about the president, and then their relationship is all about learning something is over, you're thinking,

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.000 who.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:18.000 This would be sash, but maybe I lost him.

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Sorry, but.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:29.000 All right, great Gemma, I was going to suggest that the main goal for the objective store was conceiving.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay, so then that would fall in line with this because we're the concern is for the objective story would also be here so that's a really easy quick way if you know the goal of the story.

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:56.000 You can just find it here and then promise builders like conceding that's exactly where it is and what, how would you categorize that, what, why would you say that.

00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.000 Okay.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:06.000 Unless I'm losing everybody is there.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:26.000 Does anybody have any ideas. Like I felt like the objective story was a lot to do with activities seemed more like it would be in physics like just with all the challenges of building and getting things to work like there actually was like a lot of physics

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:34.000 involved in it really was a physics problem, raising a huge heavy sub from the ocean floor Right, right.

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:42.000 So that's why I actually thought that maybe I actually do like learning but, but yeah.

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:53.000 And then so learning the goal would be. So, so there could be a few things there but, like, what's the reason that they want to raise the rush of stuff, what's the point of raising the stuff.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:07.000 The point is to like, find out as much as they can about Russian submarine technology cryptographic codes on the missiles they have like all that kind of stuff that's all sort of.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.000 That's all in the learning domain finding stuff out.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:26.000 Remember, like when you explore an object to start learning, it's the learning process that is problematic, so it's not like we're doing this in order to learn something new but I'm just I was talking about the goal, like the story going, what's the goal.

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:35.000 Oh no no I get that but but still this the same thing in a learning goal isn't learning what's inside the sub.

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:49.000 It would be, these, these stories about getting to a place where learning isn't a problem or the learning processes then problematic, like we can, we can learn easily.

00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.000 You know

00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.000 how to explain it.

00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000 I don't yeah yeah but like I mean I sort of thought it was like spying basically like it's another way of spying like like spies normally try to figure out how enemy military technology works.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:15.000 So, this was just like, a way of doing that, without even having to use spies, they can just pick up the phone from the ground.

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.000 Right, right. So it's sort of like a spine goal.

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:31.000 And, and yeah, I mean I'm not 100% sold on it I just, I thought it seemed to fit. I didn't really think too much about. Well, where's all the conflict coming from.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Is it about, you know, learning how to do this, or maybe maybe not.

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:57.000 There was a there was a big section in the first act where the team was brainstorming, and they, they went through. I think three months worth of X number of ideas, and they, they're trying to go through this productive phase and then reductive phase

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:15.000 of ideas. And I think I even saw quite a lot of lines about, hey, I've got a like Sparkman on page 12 says, I've got a lot of great ideas, and then Ruggles says main one, and he doesn't have an idea.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:38.000 And there was one other line in Act One that sort of suggested the big was the big was the big concepts in this, at least in this act and it just seemed to be a prevailing trend for the rest of the story was was keeping this idea.

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I mean the craziness of the idea, you know, it was derived from a core mission you know that the, the fairground 24 game.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:58.000 And then still this idea that people want believing the fact that it could work.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:08.000 And then by the very end, there was this big sort of momentum generated in the story where the idea was actually taking place.

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000 So I.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:16.000 So, at least, there was a lot of psychology in the story.

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:25.000 And based on what was happening in Act One I just chose conceding The idea is the is the goal.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. And also I would say, um, if you call in like Howard Hughes and all that stuff. What does, where does that fit, is that psychology or is that physics.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:48.000 I mean, isn't that more.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:08.000 And this is actually a case, I mean to me. This was, there was a lot of the problems in the story or where we see a lot of the OS characters have problems is in manipulations, we see it on the Russian side where super smart but iconoclast Russian dude

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:22.000 manipulates his boss into getting into getting, and then he played his boss's boss's into funding getting the Russians to go back in and do a double check.

00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.000 We see it in.

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:39.000 I'm trying to think of other Oh, In the leaking, and they're not least so so so so the promising of giving an exclusive story to Seymour Hersh.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:44.000 And then the fact that people who are against all this money being spent.

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:56.000 And how it's going are leaking to the other newspapers stories which is leading to this instead. So, leading to a crunched almost cancelled the job.

00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:05.000 In, in so those are all instances of manipulations trying to get other people to change the ways that they're thinking.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:24.000 Also the, the NDA let's Earth, they getting the Marine Company to sign was a source of, there was a pretty conflict oriented scene was sequence centered around contain the idea with think like in a story like this that the focus would be on the physics,

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:31.000 but if it was more like the in this, I don't know if anybody's ever seen that, and it's like super hard to find.

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:41.000 But the James Cameron film where they're actually I think there is a subject crash I think it's a US sub and then they're trying to get the nuclear weapons out or whatever.

00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:56.000 There's a lot of fighting and crash even the people get to it first. Like, a lot of the physical combat type stuff that you would see and what you would expect but I think what's interesting about this is the focus is more on the psychological aspects

00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:58.000 of it.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:09.000 With all the manipulating and game playing to make it look like they're not doing what it is that they are doing physical or like it's going to work the way that it's supposed to.

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:26.000 But I think that's more between the two heads, you know like, which which approaches the best approach, and it's less about manipulating the other one is, as opposed to like the physical aspect of actually doing it and raising it and how are we actually

00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:46.000 to go about, you know, physically, getting it done right. I think that's what makes interesting which is I think what people gravitate towards the other thing too is I think the stop dynamic is really clear, because the chip on the shoulder.

00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:57.000 You know who he thinks he is. And so I could totally see that going there I know exactly what you're talking about, but it's like it's less that's really downplayed, when I read it.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:12.000 I totally expected it was going to be okay it's going to be physics I think the interesting part or the compelling part was that it was actually, you know, other aspects, which is what sets us apart from what you would expect from this.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.000 If you told me I doing a CIA genre.

00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:29.000 You know, thriller about. And I guess not really thriller but not raising the sub spy era Cold War by I would not in a million years pick this up.

00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:39.000 I might put the main character here but I would definitely put the objective story here, certainly wouldn't do this, this is like. So I think that's what makes it so different.

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:52.000 Yeah, I think you guys sold me I actually think that might be part of the reason I didn't enjoy it very much is that I kind of didn't really notice those manipulation conflicts like like they sort of just, I kind of glossed over them I guess when I was

00:46:52.000 --> 00:47:08.000 it and didn't didn't really didn't really get me they didn't grab me, so I was really focused on the physics of it but, you know, I can see why. I can see everything you're saying for sure so so and I and because I didn't enjoy it as much maybe maybe that's why.

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.000 Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:17.000 Okay, so then, Sasha likes the conceiving present learning conscious.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:24.000 Does anybody like this family past understanding conceptualize the memory.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000 Everybody can just say no. Can you get past that.

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:40.000 No. Yeah, like going character especially wasn't yeah it's not it's not there. Okay, next one would be progress dinging being pretty conscious about this family's anybody see any of this.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:42.000 No.

00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:43.000 No.

00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:57.000 Well, so ready buddy. This is Nick, and, and, and I'm not so sure about will because I thought he was a do or myself, but I could see in the objective story.

00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:07.000 A lot of the problems coming from being from the different roles that people were pretending to be.

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:22.000 And we're playing the putting down by Podolski or whatever his name was of Dave Sharpe and, and

00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:34.000 the role that john Graham was playing about well, I've always been irascible and iconoclast what makes people pay attention to it now, you know, this is just how I am.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:40.000 And and that causes a conflict. The.

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:49.000 Again the roles on the Russian side, it's, it's all about the role playing.

00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:59.000 But I'm not so sure that I can, I can square myself with no relationship with doing I like because because

00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:16.000 they have problems in who they think they are it between john and Dave Sharpe, in they seem to the relationship seems to grow in the activities that are taking place between them.

00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:22.000 And between them. I don't see anything else happening, other than activities.

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:34.000 But I am open to a lot of help on conceptualizing the main character and impulsive responses are pre conscious.

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000 for a pre function.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.000 Does he ever have.

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:52.000 The famous, I guess I could be a lack of work, or the famous the one that Sebastian Castello always day kiss always makes fun of is the gathering at the thought of oysters illustration for pre conscious.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.000 For pre conscious. Oh yeah, yeah.

00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:04.000 You know, these impulsive sort of gut reactions to things to Steve.

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:15.000 Certainly experiences that throughout the story but is it something that happens throughout from beginning to end, or is it something that's just transitory just like in one spot.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.000 That's, that's an easy way to find that the other thing to do is to look at john Graham.

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Why, I think, well, if we were to choose between progress or president is Graham more influencing because of too much progress or not enough progress or is it more from a president, it's another way that you can kind of try and figure out where that's

00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:40.000 coming from.

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:48.000 You haven't talked a lot about him. does anybody have any sort of thoughts on that.

00:50:48.000 --> 00:51:01.000 Just to put put the argument for that. I think the influence characters was in the universe was he had a revelation. After the midpoint what, maybe, at the end of Act Two about him getting Keenum chemotherapy.

00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:04.000 Yes, I mean that that's universe for sure.

00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:13.000 And then, so then is his, the concern that he's going through there is that progression of it with the meeting.

00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:21.000 That would be a way to differentiate between progress and present.

00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:32.000 Certainly all this stuff that Nick was saying for being for the objective story is like throughout the entire thing for sure.

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:39.000 I think implied that he wasn't. He played very relatively early on, he was not going to make it.

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:49.000 And he had demise, just as the racing the stuff off the floor.

00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:54.000 I didn't know I thought I kind of liked just laughed at it.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:05.000 Okay, he's getting chemo. So, so I think we have a, an answer here but I didn't, I didn't take it as far as whether there was a progress to those that that was still applicable.

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:17.000 Show well I Gosh, this thick. Well, I'm not sure that it actually caused him problems.

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:25.000 But there is a sign of tension which indicates in equity in that in dealing with his alcoholism, every day.

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:29.000 It was just getting through the day.

00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:33.000 And, and his little middle tab.

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:39.000 And, and when he left the bar parking lot was okay until tomorrow.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:45.000 And that seems to me to argue for president, just getting through the day.

00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:55.000 Okay. That's really good. So then you would also like being and doing, and maybe you kind of see this, or.

00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:00.000 Yeah, so that that's where it kind of starts breaking down for me.

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:15.000 Examples for doing could just be Physics for the relationship right. Yeah. And then the learning is also there too, but they're like they're both there.

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:25.000 Yeah, it's just a matter of what the focus and do they do they grow the ship by learning something together, or is it by doing something together. That's how you would look to see the relationship.

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:28.000 Yeah.

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Okay, and then can we single out this one, two, or.

00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:40.000 Right. I mean if we're going to put the objective sort of becoming doesn't seem right. Yeah, right.

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:43.000 Yeah, so, like either this or this right.

00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:48.000 So, for.

00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:04.000 Let's do that consuming learning present purchase. What seems to be. I mean you can grab any of these pairs, and that's the arc for Mr. Dave.

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:11.000 Any, any pair stand out and so he goes from this, and then he ends up here.

00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:16.000 Yeah, you know, there's always that acceptance and non acceptance.

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:18.000 Yeah.

00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:27.000 Okay, and welcome to see that are no actually not so I should probably.

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:33.000 I'm thinking more accurate and inaccurate me think about non acceptance.

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:43.000 Jim Can you just re indicate where the main character to transition to and from again, he said from here to here, could you just point that out. Oh yeah.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:56.000 So, if, if this is the family that we're going to be looking at this is kind of the story form that we're looking at. So, if the main character is concerned is conscious, so I would assume that's what people think of him and stuff like that.

00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:06.000 Um, then one of these pairs will represent his art, whether or not it's going left to right or right to left, is completely up to the story like you can go.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000 You can have a huge problem with acceptance and then just reject everything, or you can start with a ton of rejection and just accept everything at the end, like you can go either way it's, you know, doesn't matter it's just because it's a changed story

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:25.000 right it's all about abandoning an old way of thinking.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:41.000 Then, what fares is going to both the main characters arc, and then also the arc of the objective story right so you know we're trying to think about whether or not it's a triumph for a virtuous story it's like well one of them it's going to be, you know,

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:51.000 it's going to be both the same arc in the main characters personal through line and then also the big picture through line

00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:59.000 thoughts here. Anyone so I'm thinking, I'm looking at probability and possibility.

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.000 Okay.

00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:09.000 And what would you which one do you think would be which.

00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:19.000 What was the what's the motivation and then where, where does it switch to, I think, probability to possibility.

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:35.000 Okay, probability to possibility so everybody's problems in the story are all about going with what probably happened. And then that creates tons of conflict and then at the end, they do something that's impossible are they not not that they do something

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:46.000 it's impossible but they are really clued in on the impossibilities of everything that we're saying, Yeah, I mean, because when I look at all these other options.

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:52.000 That was the that's the only one the sort of fits in the story for me.

00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000 Okay.

00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.000 And then also his personal thing.

00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:02.000 Yeah.

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:07.000 For some reason I had an appraisal reappraisal as my

00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:28.000 as these as and obviously that's not listed here, and the closest one might be evaluation reevaluation for what we're in your reappraisal or phrases, what was your problem solution.

00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:30.000 It was reduction in production.

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000 Okay, so that would be this pair here.

00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:48.000 Okay, so then you would say, everybody's problem in the story is because they're reducing everything down and making paring it down to the minimalist sort of version of it, and then that's creating all kinds of conflict when really what they need to do

00:57:48.000 --> 00:58:03.000 is make a huge production about everything and make it bigger, larger than life and then that solves everybody's issues. And then that would happen. Also in the main characters that should be the same that's how they resonate with one another.

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:18.000 What about the other way around. Because look like, what they're doing in the stories they're making this right they're just creating this huge production is massive ship they're putting out there that it's Howard Hughes they're, you know they're making

00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:22.000 a big deal out of the whole thing. And then,

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:39.000 I'm not sure about the reduction in the last but maybe in the for the main character, we would have something to do with him just sort of like focusing down on spending time with his time and that kind of thing.

00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:46.000 So I thought, not 100% sold on it but it seems promising.

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:52.000 And then if I do these ones, be I was hoping you would click there again.

00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:03.000 They're now looking at the being one too many pairs, standing out

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.000 accurate and not accurate.

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:11.000 And I know it reason I would say that is that we go with.

00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:19.000 What, what, what drives them is not accurate, both on his personal level.

00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:22.000 That's the chip he's carrying.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:32.000 And what drives him, to try and get back into the company. And, and

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:37.000 that that that they want. On the OS level that they want the whole sub.

00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:41.000 And, and in the end the art goes to.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:44.000 He's a good enough man on his own.

00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:57.000 And what we got is good enough and and in fact we can we can spin what we got. So that we have the effect, as if we've gotten everything.

00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:03.000 So it was accurate enough.

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:07.000 See how that's like the main character and objective story.

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:12.000 That's what you want to be able to get out of this

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:19.000 close.

01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:36.000 Like, I would love to hear what you have to say is accurate within tolerances. And one of the definitions, trying to be good enough. Within tolerances everything's just okay and non accurate like vague.

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:45.000 out of tolerance is kind of like out there, beyond the limits, that kind of thing.

01:00:45.000 --> 01:01:00.000 kind of feels like it might move from non accurate accurate. Okay, like in. So how would you see I'm thinking mine the main character like, I'm not sure that I'm not a good enough father No I am getting our father.

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:11.000 I don't know if that plays out everywhere, though, I have to think about that, these ones I struggle with, what, how, also he says you know i, this was not a failure.

01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:18.000 This was not a failure so you know he's he's.

01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:22.000 And what is that

01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:24.000 good enough.

01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:26.000 Yeah, well it's good enough.

01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:32.000 If he said, not a failure isn't that not true.

01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:36.000 but it's not an accurate statement.

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:40.000 That's true.

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:45.000 But it's because he's, he's also saying it was good enough.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Right.

01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:54.000 Yeah, so then it's just like which way is which right

01:01:54.000 --> 01:02:07.000 when. Well I was also wondering about unproven for the main character, but I don't know if that really fits for everything else like the objective story and and everything so.

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:18.000 But I do think like on pages, 86 and 87 there's that exchange between candy and Dave about why he should go see his son.

01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:32.000 And like before before we leave because he was thinking of just writing a letter right and and she's sort of like really just pointing out is probably she's like what are you are you kidding me a letter, you know like, you know, she's sort of saying well

01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:38.000 the letter is like not appropriate here not accurate. And then she gets.

01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:47.000 He's sort of, he's got all these problems with going because he's like, well, what if, what if he'll see how much of failure I am and all that. And then, and then she's just like.

01:02:47.000 --> 01:03:02.000 And he's like, what do I say when I get there. And then she's like, Oh, you have to do is say hi right like she's sort of saying, just going there is good enough like just just by being there and being being his father, that's good enough.

01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:04.000 Okay.

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:27.000 So then she she's coming from the accurate place right yeah maybe but I mean I'm not sure if that theme is necessarily like it could be playing out the influence character elements I guess but I was wondering more about main character, there but oh well.

01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:38.000 And the reason why I'm saying that is because, because it's not a steadfast story. Yeah, these till the crucial elements right so one will be the main character and one will be the influence character.

01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:55.000 Right. The actual objective story so, and I know Kenny's a bit of it, but, and she says something but then if you look at john vs Dave, who's which ones which

01:03:55.000 --> 01:04:01.000 like john accurate or not accurate. I think John's accurate.

01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:14.000 Okay. And why is that is he somebody that's just good enough, just as the bare minimum and it's like Eggers he's

01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:23.000 kind of pushing the envelope all the time.

01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:32.000 Anyone Nick light it up. Are you gonna say neck.

01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:36.000 Well,

01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:41.000 As between the two of them.

01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:59.000 Is it is it always the case that that that one embodies the other, or that what isn't it also the case that the impact characters crucial element is what most impacts.

01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:03.000 The main character,

01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000 necessarily, bodies that process

01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:22.000 would say he embodies that object that connection there. Yeah, okay.

01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:37.000 I don't know to me, I would say that the objective problem, if we're looking between these two. It would be non accurate because the whole reason that they're doing all this stuff, they're doing something absolutely insane it's totally outside of normal

01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000 to lift the sub off the bottom of the ocean. And the only reason they're doing that is because there was that crazy Admiral that just went on a weird tirade and, you know, he was being totally non accurate and made everything happen right right so always.

01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:59.000 Go ahead, go ahead. Sorry. That's all I had to say.

01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:04.000 So I would add with john john is not accurate.

01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:09.000 In the sense that he's deviancy and deficient to the purpose.

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:22.000 And for probably certainly through three quarters of the story between his alcoholism and recovering alcoholic.

01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:43.000 And, and, and towards the end, his, his chemotherapy and and his total disregard for the establishment. They were very worried, not necessarily Dave but everyone else was very worried that he was not the right type of man that we want involved.

01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:47.000 Yeah, so that would make you embodying on accurate.

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:58.000 I would totally if I just was looking at straight objective story I would think, Oh John's not accurate and Dave is accurate about when you say I'm not good enough.

01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:12.000 That's not not accurate. That means you're not accurate, like you're being driven by not good enough, like right now I'm not accurate I'm not a great father that you want to be accurate but you know you feel inside that you're not kind of thing.

01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:20.000 Yeah, and it's not, it's not that I'm like oh crazy it's just like, I'm just not good enough I gotta be, you know, perfectionism right that's accurate.

01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:22.000 Sure, yeah.

01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:32.000 So you're saying that the OS problem would have to be accurate to them right. Yeah, and I would think that's, you know, got to make sure they don't know exactly what we're doing.

01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:41.000 So we're going to throw them off course, all these sort of like accuracy sort of things is a person good enough to do the job but you should we should hire them, all that kind of stuff.

01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:50.000 I would see that, and then the interesting thing then is okay so this is the problem and this is the solution.

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:56.000 Do we get to not accurate at the end,

01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:11.000 that's the interesting part is it was a trying for a virtue is did that get to the place where it's not accurate or is a place where I live, it's accurate.

01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:17.000 Well like neither confirm nor deny is kind of not accurate.

01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:23.000 It's in the title right.

01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:35.000 So it really, that's why it's weird because it feels like a failure right oh we didn't get the sub, which it would be a failure if it was physics, like we're trying to get.

01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:49.000 But if the goal is being, and you're just pretending you know and doing all the Cold War era stuff, then moving into this non accurate position is the triumph and that's why everybody's trained at the end.

01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000 Yeah.

01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:52.000 That's why it feels like lifting right.

01:08:52.000 --> 01:09:09.000 And honestly at the end I got the feeling. Not that it was a you know a failure but but I actually felt like the author kind of tricked me in that, you know, we're like all the whole time all week all the really mattered was, you know, putting out this,

01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:15.000 you know, sort of pretending that we got the sub, that's all that really matters.

01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:31.000 Yeah. And you want I don't know that that it's all that really mattered to all the players in the OS. Originally, I really do think they wanted to get the whole sub and had somebody said, oh, we're only going to get 40 feet of the sub but we'll play it

01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:49.000 like we got the whole lot and that'll cause them to change their codes. Somebody might have said we're not spending $2 billion on that, which is what they spent for to in today's dollars they spent $2 billion for 40 feet.

01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:56.000 And you want to know the real crazy part is I actually helped me write the screenplay.

01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:06.000 Oh, whoa, whoa. Here. Well that really explains a lot now know.

01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:11.000 An example of, oh, who's ever used dramatic and to help write a screenplay.

01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:14.000 And I remember it being a failure.

01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:16.000 because this was a couple years ago.

01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:22.000 And so when I was reading through it, I was like, oh, but it's not like a success story.

01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:34.000 And then I was like, Oh, this is going to be a really interesting thing and then as I thought about exactly where the next story this 100% this is exactly what the story from was from the beginning.

01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:43.000 And I, I know, I think it was actually named something different when we were working on it but yeah the neither confirm nor deny is 100% not accurate.

01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Right, that's like, yeah, it's an example and illustration more vague and gets to the objective three goal of being of pretending to be a certain way or whatever it is sort of the spy thing.

01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:08.000 That's why I was so excited about doing this one because I was so shocked when we were doing list. And then I saw his name up there because he didn't tell them.

01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:11.000 That's like, Oh, that's great.

01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:20.000 Um, but yeah this is all I would still say, despite the author's intent

01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:35.000 that logistically their original goal was not reached, and that the actual phrase, neither confirm nor deny is actually an accurate phrase because it's a good enough assessment.

01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:42.000 Okay, and so they didn't get to non accurate.

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:46.000 who am I, against the CO writer.

01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:51.000 The original goal doesn't really matter like it's what what was the storylines cool.

01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:59.000 Yeah, no it does as far as this, I think that it does as far as this particular logistically.

01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:09.000 What was it in, in what was the original intent and it's always phrased as the original intent.

01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:18.000 And what was the original goal, doesn't matter what in between goals are and stuff like that or what the final goal was if the original one was not achieved.

01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.000 it's a failure because you don't want to, who though, like it's not the character original, the first goal set up in the story as the main goal.

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:31.000 You don't want to, who though, like it's not the character original, the first goal set up in the story as the main goal. Well, I can, I can speak right.

01:12:31.000 --> 01:12:43.000 As I recall because this was like four years ago, they really wanted the prisons really wanted something that was the psychological stuff, they want to play that up more than the physical stuff, right, like they want it all the intrigue and the Howard

01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:43.000 Hughes stuff and all that.

01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:56.000 stuff and all that. So that first indicator there. And I actually think the original intention was for it to be failure. Right. So that was the original setup.

01:12:56.000 --> 01:13:09.000 But I think what happens is that it didn't move to try and the way you can kind of reconcile that is that exercise when I was saying about the crucial element of the characters.

01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:26.000 Yeah. Because I really do think like all your examples of john as non accurate and Dave is accurate makes much more sense than the other way, and for it to work out cohesively as a failure story or virtual story or great sorry virtuous story, then these

01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:29.000 would have to be flipped john would have to be.

01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:42.000 I'm sorry. Dave would have to be not accurate and john would have to be accurate because in a failure story. The main character has the solution.

01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:46.000 and the influence character has the problem, right.

01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:56.000 So, in a training story, then this lines up, then the Davis here, I'm not good enough right all the perfectionism stuff which is more accurate driven.

01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:08.000 You know all the perfectionist stuff and then at the end, was above and beyond and even to the point where he was willing to let somebody else make decisions all that kind of stuff

01:14:08.000 --> 01:14:13.000 that arc is clear and then when it comes to the objective story.

01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:21.000 I think, as I recall, this was framed in my notes here, we're going to put

01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:29.000 to share my notes were.

01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:38.000 So, this was an acknowledged because it's based on a true story right so then it was taking real life interviews and then going over it.

01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:50.000 And one of my notes back was like this sounds like the overall story concern of being of playing a role, or pretending to be involved in something, when really or not, it also speaks to the goal of the story of being in control and on top of everything,

01:14:50.000 --> 01:15:00.000 probably not what you're used to when you think of the goal. But the story is about posturing and one upping the Russians in the Cold War, so playing that role confidently knowing you're the best.

01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:06.000 At least letting the other side now you're the best that's what you want to grab ahold of as far as what everyone is working towards.

01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:22.000 So I think I know that there is the unspoken goal of like raising the sub. But if you look at it from okay well structurally speaking when I look at, or narrative story forms weekend and I look at this.

01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:25.000 And I'm looking at being.

01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:35.000 I think it's really about like playing that role that we have, you know, we're higher up than than you are in this manipulation game.

01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:45.000 And I actually think that that ends up being a success because of his speech at the end, which is a surprise to me because I, I remember it being a failure good story.

01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:54.000 But I think, as it went along. You know, I don't remember that last speech, but I think it works well and it's almost like it got.

01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:58.000 Maybe it got the original intention might have been a failure but on the way.

01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:05.000 It became a triumph story because it really is the whole globe model response sort of thing.

01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:14.000 It's like, Hey, we're just like this is how we play the game and we're playing it this way and that's how we succeed right which then is like elevates.

01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:23.000 All the rush because I don't think the consequences of doing comes into play.

01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:34.000 To which is, if you look at the relationship story I know I know it's not on this screen but we have the choice of the relationship moving from accurate and not accurate.

01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:48.000 In a failure story, or in a success story, it would move from test, like validating each other against each other to trust where they're like, trusting each other to work to be co workers and stuff.

01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:52.000 And I think it's really much more strong tests to trust.

01:16:52.000 --> 01:17:04.000 Yeah and you know what's funny is I actually have notes, where it is the failure story, the non accurate to accurate for the relationship.

01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:16.000 Where is it, so that would be I'm sorry, I'd be back here, where I was explaining why the story, you know, because it's a failure story that relationship would be accurate expectation or not accurate.

01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:26.000 But I think when he went off to write it, then just naturally because he worked, you know, because there's other people that have input on it. Obviously, what they want from the actual final product.

01:17:26.000 --> 01:17:37.000 And it just slipped into this. Intuitively, the test of trust, because yeah I've seen that really clearly, you know. Yeah.

01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:47.000 Which is really interesting because then it's the same thing it's like well do you have the perfect story form when you're right, and he had the perfect story for him because it was with me.

01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:55.000 Right then it's like, oh, but I'm my intuition is telling me to write this success story and then also the other input.

01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:09.000 And then just naturally that stuff just fell into place because there was no follow up stuff after the first couple initial rounds of stuff going over the story for you could you speak to the, the idea that the main character, based on this story was

01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:18.000 in pre conscious. Yes, he didn't get too much pre conscious and so I.

01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:21.000 A lot of this is the.

01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:27.000 I know there's the part where should be like loses his vision, right, and. Okay. I'll call you.

01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:36.000 Right, so the intention is the stress of all this stuff. So if you think of all the father issues like I'm not a good enough father.

01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:51.000 I mean, I know you can see this here appraisal reappraisal for sure, and doubt investigations last because it's not like he does a ton of stuff with this son although you know maybe there's like little searching out feelers.

01:18:51.000 --> 01:19:07.000 This is certainly there and it's like close and I actually think I'm six months prior the very first go round. It wasn't the lower right but then, on the follow up they clearly moved to the other one.

01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:19.000 But here, for the pre conscious I think like self worth issues confidence issues certainly like all the anxieties around know whether or not he's a good enough.

01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:36.000 Father whether or not he's that the almost like the workaholic. To me, that was the really clear thing he says workaholism were just like, without even thinking he's like working at the park, without, you know, the Magic Mountain you sit in front of all

01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:50.000 textbooks and just lazy son to go, less like weren't paying attention to him, it's more just like numbed out just focused on whatever kind of work I think worry right, and then it Yeah, yeah.

01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:52.000 Interesting.

01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:56.000 That's where that came from. And

01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:56.000 for grammar, I know.

01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:11.000 for Graham I know I liked all this stuff for president definitely those ones are, you can see they're really balanced they're really close. And I think that's a reflection on the fact that the very first pass was in the lower right.

01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:13.000 So, present.

01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:24.000 Learning conceiving and conscious, and then subsequent drops and moved up. And so I think there's some residual stuff that's left over there because it's not gonna be like perfect right.

01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:41.000 So, there's some leftover stuff because I could see definitely for president I could see work attraction repulsion attempt, when it comes to john but if it's his whether or not this guy's a threat to our whole product, you know, thing whether or not he's

01:20:41.000 --> 01:21:01.000 actually doing the, you know, he's not drinking those kind of things. Certainly these come into play to a gym I actually plugged in the rest of our points, and we end up with the benchmarks, in the bottom right, too so that's even better.

01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:02.000 Okay.

01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:16.000 Yeah, so I definitely it's one of those two, but I can tell you which is great because it's always like, Do you know anybody who's ever used actually use this and it's like, yes, now we do.

01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:23.000 And I asked her, cool and he said, Yeah, go for it so

01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:45.000 can I ask you a quick question. Yeah. Nothing the cat is out of the bag. And so, the gentleman who wrote the script. I'm assuming he had the rights to, to the, to the original Marvel, or the cuz I think there was a book written by Dave Sharpe, they shop.

01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:50.000 Did you know anything about that as to how he got the IP.

01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:59.000 No, though, I know it's a Ridley Scott is the one. He's the director that wants to make it right. So it's his production company I think they bought it.

01:21:59.000 --> 01:22:11.000 And I could be wrong about this, I actually Dave is in the Navy. So he's and he's written other stuff seems to have area.

01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:22.000 And they found you, I think that is I don't actually know like Dave was my very first client is the very first person who ever hired me, so I'm very excited for him.

01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:25.000 That's very nice.

01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:34.000 Yeah, he's also written a bunch of animation stuff too so that's all I had. and hooked up with them in met with him. Really nice.

01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:47.000 That's why you know you can see it if you watch like about one of the little videos when I going over the list of the blacklist and I was like wait what I mean that know that I know that story.

01:22:47.000 --> 01:22:57.000 So, fantastic Jim yeah that's that's quite a feather in your cap. Yeah, it really it really is.

01:22:57.000 --> 01:22:59.000 And it's a great.

01:22:59.000 --> 01:23:13.000 It's a great learning thing too, so, you know, how the story form shifted and, you know, it's not like following it exactly because you could like eventually get to a place where you know what I think I actually want to do this.

01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:21.000 You know, go through and do all that stuff, you know, just kind of adjust this little one for that triumph aspect.

01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:29.000 So this is say that I definitely had the feeling of a triumph story.

01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:30.000 Yeah.

01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:55.000 But I would say that if you were to to want to emphasize the idea of us being better than the Russians, then just one or two lines at the front, would would make that the initial goal or putting one, you know, and and and then there's no issue anymore.

01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:00.000 Yeah, I mean there's no disconnect.

01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:02.000 Yeah.

01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:10.000 I mean why they won't sign it. I would throw that in there for sure.

01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:23.000 Yeah, I know they had one actor was all ready to go, but he didn't want to be on the water, so they thought out at the last second. So, The whole thing to be placed on the water so you got to introduce going to be out there.

01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Well yeah, it didn't stop Dave Sharpe pretty excited

01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:35.000 when I was like oh, this would actually fit here.

01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:37.000 So okay.

01:24:37.000 --> 01:24:39.000 Currently, was it.

01:24:39.000 --> 01:24:43.000 You'd suggested that they started off with one story form.

01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:52.000 You'd started off with one story form, and it evolved into, into a different story form or just parts of it just.

01:24:52.000 --> 01:24:57.000 So in other words, So, I think he gave it to me.

01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:59.000 2017 or something.

01:24:59.000 --> 01:25:12.000 So I went through oh this is the story for him, and then goes off and does his own thing but then he comes back, because it's not just working in isolation, they work with production team and other, you know, other people who are involved.

01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:21.000 And then it comes back, and I was like, oh wow I was off it's actually, you know the being one it's like super clear.

01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:28.000 And, but I totally call the neither confirm nor deny it, but I such an essential part of it, and you've been in there.

01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:46.000 So, When I saw that, then pointed out that things and it was really the key parts were just the arc of Dave was like the most important thing, because they'll come back and they'll the notes will be not hey the story forms on perfect they'll say, I don't

01:25:46.000 --> 01:26:01.000 feel like someone so his arc is really clear so then that's when I was like, Oh, and I gave him a list of these are five or six accurate things that fit with Dave and then this is why he switches into nano accurate, and maybe he'll let me post that and

01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:03.000 it's not that big a deal.

01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:19.000 So, I have those two things because that was what they were keying in on the other thing was, they wanted to play up the Espionage sort of all the manipulation psychology stuff so I just explained what it meant to do a psychology story and, you know,

01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:26.000 what being becoming and all that stuff Sasha you're saying about the game where it's like conceiving and conceptualizing that's totally that's on purpose.

01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:36.000 All the brainstorming stuff. I think that was actually in in the subtext thing was brainstorming like the characters brainstorm or something like that.

01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:51.000 So, yeah, so that was definitely purpose but it was only like two or three really key points that they're like okay we got to make sure this is clear, because it's so big story right and there's so many, you know, trying to trying to get at some kind

01:26:51.000 --> 01:27:00.000 of order so that it has that feeling of a story, while also, you know, keeping true to what actually really happened.

01:27:00.000 --> 01:27:09.000 And just fixing that and so it's it's not going to be a perfect representation for everyone but it's like the closest that you can get to it. Right.

01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:14.000 I thought was a great script. Really I thought was awesome.

01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:22.000 Before all kinds of reasons, the big one is described something complicated in a very understandable way, number one.

01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Number two, I find myself getting emotionally choked up about the father son thing twice, but I read it back in January, and I didn't have dramatic in my mind as I read it and I thought, well, I'm surprised I felt that way.

01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:39.000 Considering event.

01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:42.000 And I haven't again last last week when I read the script.

01:27:42.000 --> 01:27:45.000 So, so something was definitely.

01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:51.000 Right. I just had the wrong story. That was a lot.

01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:59.000 Yes, there's just a little bit, but yeah. Yeah, definitely. I felt the same way to all the emotional stuff. And I think that's what.

01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:05.000 That's why I said in the beginning I think why it's up at the top is.

01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:19.000 And because it got so many mentions over the air was because of the, the emotional counterpart to all the objective stuff. When typical you think it would just be hundred percent objective.

01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:32.000 So that's the skill I think was just spanning the story of over five years. In Acts two and three was was was really one craft.

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:35.000 Well, that's that's day for you.

01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:44.000 And, yeah, I can't wait until it's actually like, well, I don't know, we'll be in theaters will see in theater.

01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:53.000 Sometime that's for sure. But yeah, it's very exciting. And I'm pretty sure there's not anybody else on the list that I recognize but we'll see.

01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:59.000 Maybe though. Congratulations. Congratulations. That's great, really cool.

01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:09.000 So if anybody doesn't have any other questions. That'll be picked up the story for next time or you'll just let us know will be number four, I'm just going to go straight down it's just easier.

01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Okay.

01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:37.000 And I'll put that in the email tomorrow when I put up all the videos.